The Minnesota Hearings
March 6, 2010
by Brian Leubitz
In Minnesota, as I mentioned yesterday, the legislative committees have been hearing testimony, and as you would expect, the logic tends to be on our side. Fortunately for us, we have see about two and a half hours of Youtube video. Grab a bucket of popcorn, and let’s go through this for a little bit.
You’ll have to wade through some really vile stuff if you are going to get through it. Dr. Bill Harley, a “psychologist” who claims that he’s done “many” successful “conversions.” And, according to him, the victims “patients” who change from a same-sex to a opposite sex orientation, their life becomes more happier. Same-sex couples relationships, according to this expert, are less stable, more brief and more violent. According to a “study he read”, no source cited here, over the past eight years, same-sex male couples in Sweden are 50% more likely to divorce, and women are 160% more likely to divorce. Of course, Prof. Carpenter later put the lie to this “study” by pointing out that, in fact, Sweden didn’t allow gay marriage until 2008. Thus, making his entire study non-sensical. Apparently, “Dr.” Harley was studying the gay people in his brain.
His thing isn’t so much that lgbt couples shouldn’t marry, more that there shouldn’t be lgbt people:
It should be obvious that a change in orientation would benefit the adults.
When the legislator asked him where he got his information, he eventually came to the fact that it was from “people and thereapists that he’s spoken to.” So, basically, this guy went to some Exodus International Summit and talked to a bunch of people trying to pray away the gay. And from that, decided that, in fact, self-loathing gays and lesbians would be way better off being self-hating “straight” folks.
After that guy finally gets off the stage, a converted lesbian, Janet Boynes, tells the world about how much she hated herself as a lesbian. The thing about all these people isn’t that they hated being a lesbian or gay, it’s that they simply suffered from severely low self-esteem. These are people who loathe one thing or other about themselves, and
Finally, at about 70 minutes, we get to somebody who actually has a grasp on facts. At about 80 minutes in, University of Minnesota Law Professor Dale Carpenter goes through all the myths that the right wing has been spreading. He simply eviscerates all of the hateful testimony of the speakers before him. He presents the facts as they, not as the right-wing tries to fear people into believing. All in all, a terrific job.
If you have several hours this weekend, take a look at the whole video. If not, check out Prof. Carpenter’s testimony. It’s moving and logical at the same time. As he said, it is time for the state to say yes to the people.
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1.
Alan E. | March 6, 2010 at 8:31 am
http://rawstory.com/2010/03/virginia-orders-colleges-stop-protecting-gays/
“Virginia AG orders colleges to stop protecting gays”
Essentially, since their is no government protection for gay people, then the AG says that the schools should not offer protections. This is just one more thing to pile onto the already large load of bullshit.
As one commenter said: “Virginia is for lovers, unless you’re gay.”
2.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 9:03 am
I said this on the “Love Wins” thread but I’ll repeat it because it deserves repeating….
This echos of black people should not go to college and women shouldn’t work……………why can’t the hateros see that they are repeating history to the “T”…..unless they really do not know one fu<king thing about American history…..and as an african/american/irish/dutch/canadian/french Gay man….I am PI$$ED and insulted by this fu<ko Hatero bigot swatzy<3…Ronnie
3.
David Kimble | March 6, 2010 at 8:29 pm
Ronnie, I thikn this may be one reason history repeats itself – they just don’t get it. <3 David
4.
Linda | March 6, 2010 at 10:21 am
@Alan–exactly. See, the thing is, they don’t think we really exist in the first place. We’ve made this whole ss orientation thing up. We’re perverted. We’re sinful. We’re immoral, and we actually have the audacity not only to choose to be immoral, but then to insist that the law protects our immorality.
We are not a minority group in search of equal rights and protections. We’re a group of perverse, godless straight people who are wanting our sins to be condoned.
I think that pretty much sums up our opposition.
Love,
Linda
5.
Ed-M | March 6, 2010 at 7:01 pm
Yep.
6.
Michelle Evans | March 6, 2010 at 12:30 pm
I would like to add a legal angle to this discussion concerning Virginia’s slid back into the Dark Ages. In October 2009 the federal government passed, and President Obama passed into law, the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Hate Crime Act. Many religious people were up in arms because they felt this law would stamp out their right to free speech (i.e. bigotry and hatred) against LGBT people. It was rightly pointed out that the law only pertains to people who actually do violence to others, or (important in this case) incite others to do so.
The Governor and the Attorney General of Virginia have now publicly gone on record saying that it is okay to discriminate against LGBT people in their state. LGBT people, thus by definition, are not actually human beings in need of protection. The AG actually put it this way that the schools must stop protections. So I would propose this action: The very first time that any LGBT person has any violence done against them, as is bound to happen because of their rulings and comments, then both the Gov and AG should be immediately prosecuted under the Federal Hate Crimes Law.
Maybe that would start to get people’s attention that this is not something that will be accepted in our society any longer. We are all people, we are all human beings, no matter what these guys think, or want others to think.
7.
K!r!lleXXI | March 6, 2010 at 12:42 pm
I second that motion!
8.
Alex | March 8, 2010 at 9:17 pm
You are going a bit far that the Gov and Attny Gen. should be prosecuted under Federal Hate Crimes Law if there is any violence against LGBT people.
9.
Richard Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan) | March 8, 2010 at 9:35 pm
And how is that? Their actions are aiding and abetting in the beatings and other hate crimes being committed against us. After all, they have both committed actions that sanction discrimination and will lead to the same types of ats being committed against us that were committed by the KKK against AA’s in this country. Therefore, they should most assuredly, definitely, and swiftly be broght to trial for aiding and abetting, and carged with the same number of counts of aiding and abetting a federal felony under the Shepard-Byrd Act as the total number of charges against the direct perpetrators of those hate crimes. Are you an LGBTQQIA or are you a hatero?
10.
G. Rod | March 6, 2010 at 5:04 pm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/03/AR2010030304213_2.html?sid=ST2010030204682
Insightful article about the incremental approach taken in DC.
It agrees with Brian’s earlier comment about building alliances and coalitions. Minnesota and Viginia ought to be put in that context. Bill’s earlier statement about the importance of the courts also is reinforced by this article.
11.
Richard W. Fitch | March 6, 2010 at 8:49 am
Can we hope that mid-American fair-mindedness will progress from Iowa on north into MN?
12.
Ben | March 6, 2010 at 8:54 am
I certainly hope so. A fairly powerful movement has appeared here; it’s notable that Minnesota wasn’t even capable if bringing a “protection of marriage”-type bill to a vote previously. Now, maybe, something good can show up. Even though at this point I’m going to Montréal this fall for college, I would feel far happier were something good to come to pass. Especially if we can get a Democratic governor this election.
13.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 8:57 am
“Same-sex couples relationships, according to this expert, are less stable, more brief and more violent.”
Pot meet kettle….Hello Kettle..oh I love your black couture…its a pleasure meeting you Pot…and I love your brassie finish and curvy Rococo style handle….We should have coffee some time Kettle…sorry Pot I only do tea….coffee is gross…just the though of it is unnatural…
hehehe
Again the hateros act as if they know all same sex couples and can read the minds of all gay people…hence why I also give them the nick name of “They Gay Whisperers”…..<3…Ronnie
14.
K!r!lleXXI | March 6, 2010 at 10:51 am
@Ronnie
Oh, that’s why “The Gay Whisperers”!
I couldn’t figure it out…
You should post these things somewhere — the dictionary for those who want to understand Ronnie. :) Some things are self-explanatory, but others… not so easy to get…
–Kirill
15.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 10:57 am
That’s a good Idea Kirill….I’ll look into that…I do have enough terms to start my own language….lol…..<3…Ronnie
16.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 8:59 am
“His thing isn’t so much that lgbt couples shouldn’t marry, more that there shouldn’t be lgbt people:”
Right on the nose…that is what the Hateros want…..<3..Ronnie
17.
Bill | March 6, 2010 at 9:00 am
It is important to note that some of the bigots did bring up the whole anal sex, human excrement argument for denying civil rights:
http://minnesotaindependent.com/55938/sen-moua-gay-marriage-foes-fixated-on-sex-making
These people make me ill.
Especially since the CDC reports that 38% of HETEROSEXUALS have anal sex, making it, by and large, a HETEROSEXUAL activity. ANd any heterosexuals that have had or performed oral sex have participated in sodomy, too. Jesus Christ, I am tired of this.
The open and public insulting of us and our sex and our love. And the absolutely shamless and indeed tribal and celebratory manner with which these bigots present their disgusting notions of what it means to be LGTB is something that makes me weary. It makes me tired. It makes me sad.
Then, I remember that I am not the one going around trying to insult and harm and degrade and dehumanize innocent human beings and that makes me the GOOD guy, not the BAD guy and then all is OK with the world again. At least until the next bigot attacks.
Damn. It’s a great life, if you don’t weaken.
18.
Kevin S. | March 6, 2010 at 9:20 am
Weren’t anti-sodomy laws deemed unconstitutional? Thus, any argument based on sodomy should be legally null-and-void, no?
19.
K!r!lleXXI | March 6, 2010 at 10:58 am
@Bill
♦ they want us to lie to God and pretend we are “normal;”
♦ they want us to lie to God and take husbands and wives we don’t love;
♦ they want us to have sex with people we don’t love sexually;
♦ they want to control our lives, tell us what to do.
If this is Christianity — fuck Christianity!
If this is normal — fuck this normalcy!
20.
Ed-M | March 6, 2010 at 11:15 pm
Kirille, I agree. If this is Christianity; then fuck Christianity.
But I know that this ISN’T Christianity… it’s Death God worship! Because the way they want us to live our lives, if we were to obey their decrees, means spiritual and psychic death for us! And if these “christian” hateros were to get full control of the US Government without having to share with the Neocons, they’ll start World War III. And if Jesus Christ were to return in the midst of a global war they started… well they won’t like his judgements very much, HAHAHA. Remember, the guy these hateros love to claim as THEIR personal Lord and Saviour, and theirs alone, had a beloved disciple… who was quite obviously male. And the relationship was deeper and more intense than the friendships/relationships Jesus had with the other disciples… for they noticed it. So no matter what they quote, even the Bible itself… we are on the right side and they, the wrong.
21.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 9:28 am
This is what I have to say to the Minnesota Hateros:
Who wouldna knowed….Dont cha Know…..that does it there now…oh for da love of BJ’s sake….<3…Ronnie:
22.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 9:50 am
Oh for crying out loud..I just can’t…this guy…I mean does he really think he is going to get anything?
http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2010/03/06/Straight_Guy_Sues_Craigslist_Says_Coworkers_Solicited_Gay_Sex_for_Him/
First off..Craigslist is not responsible for what people post on there…its in their policy and disclaimer…he has no case there….
2nd….unless his co-workers did it on company time using company equipment and company accounts his employer is not responsible for anything….he’s has no case there
The most this guy will get is fired and will never get another job….He would have been better of suing his co-workers…at least he would have gotten a pretty sweet settlement…still have some sense of dignity…and maybe even his job…
Why do I get the feeling that Haggie is behind this(pun intended)…..<3…Ronnie
23.
Felyx | March 6, 2010 at 11:05 am
Ronnie, it says calls were made to his house. If the phone number was posted online and the plaintiff can show that it was as well as provide the audio of the calls made, then there would be cause to consider craigslist responsible. I don’t think it can go very far, but there would be cause to show that Craigslist did not monitor it’s site close enough to avoid this violation of it’s policy.
As for suing his own company….usually not a good move. You are right, he would have to show it was done on company time with company equipment and that management was aware of who was doing it and what was going on. Even then he would have to show that there was some law or some company policy that was violated and that there was something the company could do about it that it would have been fair and equitable. Simply being punked is not a crime.
CL however has every right to go after the individual that set up the prank for violation of it’s policy.
24.
David Kimble | March 6, 2010 at 1:54 pm
I am not familiar with Craiglist, but as a rule, most of the websites I have any familiarity with, will screen-out home phone numbers – usually people are required to respond to a number, which has multiple boxes attached to the phone number, which the respondent will then select the appropriate box number. Is anyone else familiar with how “Craiglist works?”
On a different subject, I just completed watching the entire video – yes, it was long, but what is interesting is many of the same issues raised in Prop8 came-out and were addressed. <3 David
25.
Ed-M | March 6, 2010 at 11:26 pm
I’m wondering if this guy is straigt. He could be one of those screechily vocal hateros and his coworkers probably thought: “We think he doth protest too much,” and acted accordingly. If they used company equipment on company time and he can prove it… he has a case. If they figured him for gay simply because of his comportment (the manner in which he naturally presents himself) and he can prove it… then he has a case, for this is sexual harassment. If Craigslist left his phone number in the ad and he has the evidence, then he has a case.
26.
Mouse | March 7, 2010 at 3:51 am
It would be sexual harassment even if the gay part were omitted.
Coworkers were responsible for random strangers calling his home and talking about sexual things.
27.
Ronnie | March 7, 2010 at 6:24 am
The problem is guys is that whatever lawyers he has…SUCK….he suing the wrong people….Craigslist doesn’t do fact checking (trust me I have done a lot of debunking of scams from that site)…..an like I said he needs to have proof that is was done on company blah blah….He should of sued the co-workers…definite case there….<3…Ronnie
28.
Kathleen | March 6, 2010 at 10:01 am
Ugh, I don’t know how much more of this stuff I can watch. I mean, like any bigotry, I know it exists, but somehow when actually confronted with it, in all its nakedness, it still astounds and pains to my core. When, oh when, will we, as a society, grow up and free ourselves from this fear and hatred.
Love,
Kathleen
29.
David Kimble | March 6, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Kathleen, you ask, “When, oh when, will we, as a society, grow up and free ourselves from this fear and hatred”
My response would be, as soon as the separation of church and state clause of the US Constitution is fully enforced. I don’t believe it was the intent of the writer’s of the US Constitution to allow ‘Christianity’ to ride rough-shod over the US, and use it like a club to beat everyone, who does not subscribe to their mis-interpretation of this document, as being vile humans, somehow unworthy of their presence! <3 David
30.
Billy | March 6, 2010 at 10:19 am
I’m downloading the video from youtube right now to put on my iPod and watch later tonight.
But seriously, haven’t these “ex-gay” ministries and therapies been proven time and time again to not “cure” someone, but instead… condition them to repress their true feelings? It doesn’t make someone “ex-gay”… it just makes them ashamed of who they really are, and forces them to conform to what the therapist/ministry believes is right.
I bet you $1 this so-called “Doctor” isn’t licensed by the state, and if he is… his license should be revoked, since homosexuality was taken off the DSM (Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) years ago. What a quack.
31.
Alan E. | March 6, 2010 at 10:58 am
The big question is, if they work so well, then why are there so many different methods with minimal results?
32.
Bry | March 6, 2010 at 6:14 pm
I wonder did he actually use “patient” in the video?
Cause legitimate Psychologists use the term “Client”
There was a whole thing about it in my abnormal psych book because of the important significance of the words and how “patient” is really offensive.
But I agree – I bet you he definitely ain’t a legit psychologist. Legit Psychologists want reparative therapy outlawed – put politely the stance of the APA is that it’s abuse.
33.
hank | March 6, 2010 at 10:25 am
This guy Dr. Bill Harley is soo out of touch. Many of the issues regarding gay people such as suicides results from the way society treats them. The stress of not being accepted can be overwhelming. If society accepted being gay as they do being straight, dysfunctional behavior, on all levels, would probably more in line with most straight people. In my opinion, without the existence of the stress of bigotry, the gay community would be more stable and enjoy more happiness than straight society.
34.
Ed-M | March 6, 2010 at 11:43 pm
You are right. Ancient Greek and Roman societies, although misogynist, were not homophobic. Result, ,ale-male relationships tended to be the longest lasting, most stable relationships in society. Plato in his Symposium reported this.
Not the greatest of links IMO but it works: http://www.enotalone.com/article/4358.html
35.
Kevin S. | March 7, 2010 at 8:59 am
I took a class a couple years ago on the Theology of Love, and we started out with Plato and Symposium. Incredibly enjoyable, and starkly contrasted by the follow-up with Augustine.
36.
Petr Tomeš | March 6, 2010 at 10:26 am
The relevant facts can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#Choice_vs._innate
37.
K!r!lleXXI | March 6, 2010 at 10:32 am
2:22:27! Wow!
Obviously, time and time again they try to use their pseudoscience that comes out of their collective homophobic asses, not from real results of meticulous research and well thought-out studies!
So called “converted” people have different ways to their “conversion:”
♦ they are bisexual and just choose to be heterosexual and ignore their same-sex attractions;
♦ they are bi-curious and never were homosexual, so they easily “cured” from this;
♦ they are homosexual and they were drove into hating themselves so much by religious haters, so they had to trick themselves into thinking they can change and become “normal” — so nobody will hate them anymore;
♦ they are idiots who are not even bi-curious, but they just have no idea who they are and who they want to fuck with;
♦ they are liars who are being paid for telling people they used to be gay.
All in all, the whole conversion thing exists and “works” solely because of and for the hatred and persecution that exists towards gays and lesbians. No other reason.
Dale Carpenter. Wow, yesterday I linked to his incredible article about the failure of comparing polygamy to same-sex marriage! I hope it’s the same one…
–Kirill, Russia
38.
Adam | March 6, 2010 at 10:36 am
How can courts subject sexual minorities to this again and again, when the opposition is proven as a type of quackery? Aren’t they upholding the legal standing of culturally beneficient institutions like psychological practice as they eviscerate our lives in public? We live in a truly reactionary age if the answer is yes…
39.
Billy | March 6, 2010 at 10:47 am
We have no peers in the public arena. None. These people that are sitting up there debating our rights and deciding our fate have no idea what it is like to be a glbt American and have to have your existence validated on a daily basis by the majority. They have to sit there and dissect us, because they cannot possibly relate or understand us. It is sick and sad.
When do we get to hold public hearings about how straight people, with a little conversion therapy, became happily gay? They don’t see their own sexual orientation as a choice, because that would be ludicrous to assume, but obviously we’re sick in the head. We don’t know what’s in our own best interests. We need to be labeled and defined so we can be studied and analyzed; categorized and (if they got their wish) institutionalized.
I’m angry. I need coffee. Phuck them all.
40.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 11:00 am
I think I am go to start my own Conversion Therapy services to convert Haterosexuals into Heterosexuals and/or LGBTQQI(Homosexuals)…..
I will call it “Enterus”………<3…Ronnie
41.
Breathturn | March 6, 2010 at 11:13 am
All is not dark, Billy! Scott Dibble is openly gay and one of the senators to present a marriage equality bill to the committee. We do have peers, slowly but surely we have representation.
42.
Ed-M | March 6, 2010 at 11:54 pm
If VA, FL and TX are any indication, yes, the answer is yes and we do live in a reactionary age… we are going to have to get ready to flee the soon-to-be damned country if this be the case and the enlightened countries are going to have to be prepared to take us in… I can no longer stand these hateros and can no longer call them Christian… they spit in the face of Jesus Christ and would crucify Him afresh to a utility pole and electrocute Him with the electric wires if they got a chance… wishing death upon us, they have shown that they are Death God worshippers…
43.
Kathleen | March 7, 2010 at 12:35 am
I’ve gotten pretty fed up with this country. I spend a lot of time in the UK because my oldest son and his family live there (he’s married to a British woman). Every time I visit, I’m struck by the contrast and how oppressive the US is in so many ways. My son’s mother in law is politically conservative and even racist, yet the fact that her son is gay is a complete non-issue for her.
The British find it kind of strange that our politicians bring religion into the political discourse so often. In general, they consider religion more of a private matter that really isn’t an appropriate subject in civil debate. Yet in this country, as Sam Harris recently said in an interview “”unless you pretend that we are sort of potentially in dialogue with an omniscient creator who’s watching out for us .. you can’t be elected in this country.”
Combine this with the inhumane lack of universal health care and I’ve been looking more and more at Canada. Do you think it will count that my ancestors were United Empire Loyalists who were given land grants in Upper Canada? Think they’ll let me immigrate?
44.
Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan) | March 6, 2010 at 11:07 am
Somehow, I hope this one goes through.
45.
dieter | March 6, 2010 at 11:13 am
hellllooooooo?
46.
dieter | March 6, 2010 at 11:13 am
aha…posts were not showing up, so I changed my email address and now they are…weird…..
47.
Kathleen | March 6, 2010 at 11:16 am
another regular poster on our site wrote to me to say he was having the same problem. I wonder if cc is aware that this problem is happening?
48.
Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan) | March 6, 2010 at 11:23 am
I sent an email, and Julia reponded to me that nothing was wrong, and yet, I have had several posts that did not post after I put my FB link in the URL box. And two of them were right after this thread started. ONe was on “Love Wins” to notify everyone of the new thead.
49.
Kathleen | March 6, 2010 at 11:26 am
Well, something clearly is or was wrong. This has happened to more than one person, and people from different localities. I posted a note on the FB P8TT site. Hopefully, if there are other people having trouble, they’ll chime in.
50.
K!r!lleXXI | March 6, 2010 at 12:29 pm
Yeah, Kathleen, that was me, I’m not hiding it :)
I’ve had problems with comments since yesterday.
And today I couldn’t post my big comment of this post.
Nothing was working.
I thought it’s just me.
What I did: I changed my IP address.
I think they’ve turned on some kind of a mechanism that silently tramples on our freedom of speech here. I suspect I was banned after using the F-word several times. Not the f-a-g one, the original one. So, I suggest people to cover any slur with stars or something. This is my working theory right now.
–Kirill
51.
Kathleen | March 6, 2010 at 12:38 pm
Hi Kirill, I didn’t think you were hiding. It’s just my general policy to treat private correspondence as just that – private. I figure if anyone wants to tell the world what s/he told me, that’s up to that person, not me (even something as mundane as having trouble posting).
Love,
Katheen
52.
Kathleen | March 6, 2010 at 11:34 am
This is on DADT, so hope it’s okay to post here, on an unrelated thread.
Don’t know how this slipped by me, but appears that the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, in 2008, ruled that “for a gay service member’s discharge to be constitutional, the military must demonstrate that the firing promotes cohesion or discipline in the unit. That is a much higher standard than what has been practiced since the ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ policy.”
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_MILITARY_GAYS_LEGAL?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
53.
Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan) | March 6, 2010 at 12:07 pm
Kathleen, I don’t think anything that concerns equality for all is off topic here, especially when it is good news about the death of DADT, and the Witt Ruling is one more nail in its coffin. YES!!!
54.
David Kimble | March 6, 2010 at 2:23 pm
Apparently the right wing must live in a bubble, since I just went to the website and noticed some obvious failures of logic. Additionally, their toxic stories are just that toxic. <3 David
55.
truthspew | March 6, 2010 at 12:05 pm
I see the same crap at the hearings we’ve had here in RI ad-infinitum!
Of course my relationship will pass 17 years in September. Not very violent, oh early in the relationship sure there was a little bit of thrown things and food fights (I bet there’s still a ketchup stain on the ceiling of one place!)
So like all the bigots, Harley is pulling it straight from his own ass.
56.
Kalibra | March 6, 2010 at 12:10 pm
Off topic….but still, i felt that i must post this.
Regarding DADT…..this is mind numbing….
http://www.traditionalvalues.org/read/3862/our-soldiers-are-not-lab-rats/
Damn…..just Damn
Ed
57.
Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan) | March 6, 2010 at 12:16 pm
That is because the ones who came up with this are brain dead. They are forgetting the fact that we have had LGBTQQI’s in the military for the entire history of the US military, including our colonial militia. They are tryin to circumvent the constitutions protections for freedom of religion by joining together to force one version of religion on the entire nation, and they are totally forgetting the fact also that when Admiral Mullen is holding his Town Hall meetings with the troops, that the men and women who are in uniform support the repeal of DADT. These people are only shouting out the death rattles of their losing battle.
58.
Michelle Evans | March 6, 2010 at 1:20 pm
Yep, they definitely have no understanding that LGBT people are already serving in the military. I did so for seven years in the Air Force. We just have to lie about it, which is hateful and horrible. But they don’t care about how they affect other people’s lives as long as their own are protected from us “vermin.”
Please note the comments concerning transgender in the article, as it actually is absolutely true. Just like the 2006 ENDA bill, it was decided that including any protections for transgender people is something that “decent” folk would never consider, even if they were in favor of full equality and protections for LGB people.
I especially liked the comment concerning drag queens serving, as I could just imagine a drag queen on a military mission–or at least that’s the way they see it. Guess they don’t understand the idea that military people, no matter who they are, have a little thing that must be adhered to each day and that is wearing the proper uniform for their job. I doubt wearing an outfit from Cher or Liza or Barbara would qualify! These idiots are truly and completely brain dead.
59.
Kathleen | March 6, 2010 at 1:29 pm
Michelle, you’re right. The level of misinformation and demeaning stereotyping about transgender people is exponentially worse than that surrounding sexual orientation. It’s depressing. Thank you for being here. BTW, are you on facebook, and would you be willing to accept a friend request? (no pressure, I assure you!)
60.
Michelle Evans | March 6, 2010 at 1:36 pm
Kathleen,
Thanks for your comments and support, as with all the support I get from the wonderful people on this site. All of you are there to brighten my day, even when we talk about the horrible things that many people in this country still wish to do to discriminate against us.
As for facebook, no, I do not have a page there as I usually stay away from those types of sites. I do have my own web site, so anyone here is more than welcome to take a look around and drop me a line through that anytime. I even have an area in my History pages that shows some of my time serving in the military.
My site is located at: http://www.mach25media.com
Thanks again to you all. I’ll be off line for the rest of the afternoon as my wife and I are on our way to the Irvine Spectrum to attempt to gather signatures for the repeal of Prop 8.
61.
Ed-M | March 7, 2010 at 12:02 am
I for one, can no longer link to their bigotry… I had the displeasure of OD’ing on it from the comments secxtion of a FACTUAL web article of the VA AG’s attempt to force universities to give up their LGBT nondiscrimination policies… hateros that call themselves Christian but worship Death Gods forcing their beliefs and agenda on us… yet they have the audacity to claim we are forcing our beliefs abd agenda on THEM… eff them all is all I have to say.
62.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 12:16 pm
http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2010/03/06/Antigay_Group_Repealing_DADT_Will_Bring_Sex-Crazed_Gay_Males/
Posted on Advocate.com March 06, 2010
Antigay Group: Repealing DADT Will Bring “Sex-Crazed Gay Males”
By Advocate.com Editors
” The letter is accompanied by a photo of a man dressed in a military uniform with a rainbow colored scarf around his neck. ”
(me) who is probably not even Gay
“When I was sitting in that hearing room listening to Senator Levin and other pompous liberals blather on about the importance of gays and lesbians serving openly in the military, I felt sick to my stomach. But, I was also filled with anger that some Members of Congress would be so willing to undermine our military in order to cater to a small minority of individuals who love to engage in bizarre sex acts.”
(me) and you forcing your beliefs on us is not pompous?… thats the ho calling slut classy……and in that last sentence didn’t the say the same thing about black men and especially about women?……This ugly spilt ended B!TCH needs to be punched in her ugly face with an open palm of course…..<3….Ronnie
63.
Michelle Evans | March 6, 2010 at 1:13 pm
Ronnie,
Tell us what you really think! :-)))
Michelle
64.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 2:07 pm
So I went to that split ended skanks website to see this “picture”……
These people must fu<king blind…BLIND I tell cha don't cha know?
1.) It looks like a pic they snapped at a gay pride parade.
2.) He is wearing a bike helmut not a military one…last time I looked the military ones didn't come in neon orange camouflage.
3.) He is wearing a military style button up shirt but has no American Flag, no stripes, no name, nothing that is remotely resembling an armed forces uniform.
I mean…you know…I can't…pift…ah ho….hehehe…golly gee wow…The fairy wings, rainbow bow tie and magic wand in a nice touch though…yeah?
You can the link to this imbecilic letter and "photo" from the advocate.com article….<3…Ronnie
65.
Ed-M | March 7, 2010 at 12:12 am
If ANY of the gay males are “sex-crazed” it would be the repressed, closeted ones… I have read of far too many instances where the gay servicemember is sexually harassed and preyed upon by his so-called “heterosexual” peers… and where the lesbian servicemember is subjected to even worse!
66.
fiona64 | March 7, 2010 at 11:35 am
If they think that it would only be gay males in the military who were sex-crazed, it’s quite plain that a) they don’t remember Tailhook and b) have never been to a Navy club on Friday night.
Yeesh.
Love,
Fiona
67.
Waxr | March 6, 2010 at 12:42 pm
Be sure to listen to the video all the way through. The negative and false statements which are made early in the video are decisively refuted later on.
I was amused by the fact that clergymen were testifying in front of a committee which was chaired by a woman (at one point in the proceedings she mentions her own children.) While they were willing to quote statements by Paul, they did not mention Paul’s opinion of women.
E.G.
2 Timothy 2:11-15
A woman must learn quietly with all submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. She must remain quiet. For Adam was formed first and then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, because she was fully deceived, fell into transgression. But she will be delivered through childbearing, if she continues in faith and love and holiness with self-control.
Organized religion had been one of the major hurdles women had to overcome in order to acquire equality with men. But even today, the Catholic and Mormon churches prohibits women from becoming a part of their clergy.
68.
Kathleen | March 6, 2010 at 12:54 pm
Back when I used to work as a carpenter, I was on a job that required me to rappel down the side of a building to drill holes with a hammer drill. As a safety measure, I was tied off on a “life line” that would stop my fall if the other equipment failed . My partner for the day was responsible for watching the life line (tied off on the roof) to make sure nothing disturbed it.
During lunch break, I made a comment about not having had time to make a lunch that morning, and having to stop at a store and pick up a ready-made sandwich on the way to work. This “partner” (whom I’d never worked with before) went into a rant about what other “womanly” responsibilities I was failing to perform and what an offense I was to jesus for working outside the home, etc, etc.
After staring at him, dumbfounded, for a few seconds, I went to a phone, called my supervisor, and insisted he find someone else to guard my life line before I’d go back down the side of the building.
69.
Michelle Evans | March 6, 2010 at 1:25 pm
Funny that your “partner” that day didn’t even stop to recall that Jesus was a carpenter!
70.
Kathleen | March 6, 2010 at 1:36 pm
Yeah, but Jesus was a male carpenter; I was merely an abomination. I’m sure he would have stoned me to death if he’d thought he could get away with it.
This guy was an idiot. He was famously joked about by our fellow workers for having once stood behind a concrete truck, directing the driver who backing into a work site, and directing the truck to drive over (and of course crushing) his foot.
The thing I learned while working in such a male dominated occupation (and I was a member of the carpenter’s union) was that the people who were jerks about a woman working as a carpenter, were jerks to everyone about something. They were just jerks. With me, it was because I was a woman, because that’s what they could find to focus on. With other people it was because of their race, or their name, or their accent, or …… just name your random attribute.
The vast majority of the men I worked with took a little time getting used to me, but eventually they got over themselves and even learned to respect me for my knowledge and skill.
71.
Kevin S. | March 6, 2010 at 2:06 pm
I’m sure he would have stoned me to death if he’d thought he could get away with it.
Moral of the story – follow Jesus, so long as you can get away with it. That’s the lesson I learned from the early Christians who faced the lions!
I can respect someone who is truly following their faith, even if I disagree with them. What I cannot respect is the vast majority of the anti-gay crowd, who simply use the Bible as an excuse to justify their own fears and insecurities. They can all go to hell.
72.
Waxr | March 6, 2010 at 11:26 pm
Kathleen:
My guess is that you began working as a carpenter in the late 1960′s.
You would never find women doing “men’s work” in the 1950′s or early 1960′s. The first time I saw a woman carpenter she appeared strange and out of place. Other people probably felt the same. So I can understand how some of your fellow workers may have felt, but it didn’t take long before women were accepted in every field.
I was used to hearing Edward R. Murrow and Walter Cronkite give the news. When I first heard a woman newscaster I had doubts if a woman could handle it. They didn’t sound authoritative enough. Today, some of the best newscasters are women.
Times have changed.
73.
Kathleen | March 6, 2010 at 11:42 pm
@waxr, actually, I joined the Carpenter’s Union, local 1062 in Santa Barbara, California, in August, 1979, as a first period apprentice. I was the only woman in the union. Three and half years later, I was the first woman to ever “turn out” as journey”man” in my local (I was given a plaque by the State of California to commemorate the event). As of 1998, the last time I checked, I was still the only woman to ever be a member of that local.
It is still very, very unusual to find women in construction trades. I don’t know what the stats are nationally, but I just found this figure in a Jan, 2010 news report:
“Of the 46,000 carpenters represented by the Chicago Regional Council of Carpenters, only about 400 are women”
74.
Kathleen | March 6, 2010 at 11:59 pm
Oh, just thought I’d add — I already had an example of what it meant for a woman to work in a traditionally male occupation. My mother was a machinist. And that was in the early 1950s and right on through the 1960s and 70s. For anyone who’s my friend on facebook, you can see a picture of her in my “childhood” photo album, taken in 1953, when she was working at the Packmayr Gun Works.
75.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 1:00 pm
I think we need a song because after reading about those Minnesota dumb @$$ hateros and that Andrea Laughatme B!TCH……I am utterly sick to my stomach and seroiusly want to punch something……I now 100% see their true colors and they are ugly….. but our true colors are beautiful like a rainbow……..<3….Ronnie:
76.
Kathleen | March 6, 2010 at 1:01 pm
I’m a total gleek.
77.
Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan) | March 6, 2010 at 1:37 pm
Ronnie, you are turning me into a gleek with all these videos! Way to go! Now, can you find Cynid’s original for me?
78.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 1:43 pm
did you mean Cindy Lauper?
79.
Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan) | March 6, 2010 at 1:46 pm
Yes. I see that the last two letters got transposed. My brain works faster than my fingers sometimes. I’m sre you understand. DON’T JUDGE ME! (LOL!!♥ ♥ ♥)
80.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 1:51 pm
Here you go…This is a good video…it shows their ugly dark colors and our beautiful brights colors…<3…Ronnie:
81.
Kathleen | March 6, 2010 at 8:40 pm
Speaking of Glee, what’s your favorite episode? Mine’s “Preggers” – where the football team dances during the game, Kurt joins the team as a kicker and at the end of the episode comes out to his dad. It’s both hilarious and moving.
82.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 8:46 pm
I looooovvvve all of them….but that one is my fav. too….you know I can do that dance right down to the head moves…..lol….in heels….<3….Ronnie
83.
Kathleen | March 6, 2010 at 8:47 pm
Oooo, you have to do a video for us!
84.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 8:51 pm
LMAO….Maybe someday soon I will….I have actually thought about doing that…hehehe…<3…Ronnie
85.
Kathleen | March 6, 2010 at 8:57 pm
This awesome version of “Sweet Caroline” by “Puck”. Mark Salling has a great voice!
86.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 9:07 pm
And Hot too….lol….<3….Ronnie
87.
Kathleen | March 6, 2010 at 9:11 pm
Yeah. I agree :)
88.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 1:19 pm
And now I want to be blunt….Do these collective Hatero nimrods have any fu<king brains what so ever….I just asked my mother about this…..
They say, especially Andrea Laughatme from TVC, that the gov. should not allow gay people into the armed forces as if we are not already in the armed forces….Hello A.L. nimrod…this is why this is such a big f-ing deal….
Now here is my educated, modern and historically observant….um….observation….there are what? over 65 thou gay men and women serving….who are trained killers….they may have a license to own a gun let alone knowing how to use one…among all of the other things they are taught how to make….Why do the Hateros want to make these people mad?…I mean seriously are they out of the collective imbecilic fu<king minds…..JMHGO……<3…Ronnie
Oh and P.S. my mom said…"You know..you're right…I never thought of it that way."
89.
Regan DuCasse | March 6, 2010 at 1:40 pm
Why, when bringing ‘proof’ of the conditions of marriage equality, they pretty much ONLY cite, Sweden?
Why not Canada? A much LARGER country with a similar culture to ours? Marriage has been legal in that entire country for years now.
Is it only the countries they think are negatively impacted they think are the ones worthy of qualifying ALL of marriage equality?
Even in the ‘Swedish study’ there is a huge omission of the fact that it’s social programs that rendered marriage unnecessary and unfashionable in that country, not the inclusion of gay couples getting married.
The quality of life in Massachusetts isn’t compromised in the least, nor was CA for the brief window of time that marriage was legal here.
Apparently, the general public is supposed to suspend common sense and intelligence and think any NEGATIVE aspects regarding sex, sexuality, marriage, family and children are exclusive to gay people.
used to give the general public more credit for brains and courage than that.
Silly me.
90.
Ed-M | March 7, 2010 at 1:00 am
Silly me, too. Before the Iranian uprising, I thought one of the worst stereotype about Muslim people was true: if given democracy, they would all vote for themselves theocracies! Looks like that stereotype might apply to the general public in this country, instead. I hope I’m wrong.
91.
K!r!lleXXI | March 7, 2010 at 8:47 am
@Ed-M
You’re not wrong because you’re exactly right!
Many Americans believe that this country was created as a Christian Nation, and this is how the Founding Fathers intended it to be… So, this is a theocracy, and polls only prove that — not so many people would elect an atheist President (numbers are even less than for a religious gay person); being an atheist is worse than being a butt-phucking gay man in the US! Why people want to elect spiritual Presidents? Because they want them to rule with accordance to the Bible, not the Constitution. And this is why Obama is scared shitless to acknowledge our existence and our rights — he has to play a good ol’ fashioned Christian altar boy, this is the only way to be elected a President in 2012. Funny thing is, though, that Washington is one of the gayest places in the US, especially in the government… (according to Outrage documentary). Go figure.
–Kirill
92.
Regan DuCasse | March 6, 2010 at 2:29 pm
While I was listening to Ms. Boynes give her statement, here she was raised in an op sex household with four different fathers and she didn’t turn out so well to HER way of thinking because she was lesbian.
How come that same scenario plays out in millions of homes throughout the years and no one blames HETEROSEXUALITY for the dysfunction of their lives.
Ms. Swanson was the more truthful and direct proof of what orientation means. She represented a nuclear family with TWO lesbian daughters, themselves stable and self reliant and contributing individuals.
Which is true for a MAJORITY of gay folks.
There are children of divorce who might be commitment shy or turned off by marriage OR divorce.
None of this has anything to do with what sexual orientation you will be.
Ms. Boynes is single, and apparently ex sexual and in no relationship to test being gay or not.
Another status situation (celibate single) irrelevant to sexual orientation.
And essentially not grounds whatsoever for marriage discrimination against gay couples.
93.
CeeVee | March 8, 2010 at 7:59 am
Janet Boynes is only trying to further her commercial agenda of Janet Boynes Ministries….google it and go there if you want, but she’s disgusting.
I have a hunch that someone wrote her speech, not that she wasn’t capable of writing it herself, but either someone else wrote it or she didn’t rehearse enough because the the whole thing sounded a little forced, if you ask me.
94.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 2:30 pm
Every time a Hatero speaks another LGBTQQI teen gets their wings….and glitter too…..hehehehe…..<3…Ronnie
95.
PDXAndrew | March 6, 2010 at 5:49 pm
I do believe in fairies! I do I do!
Love, Andrew
96.
Bry | March 6, 2010 at 6:36 pm
I like that..
I’ve also heard that everytime a Hatero gets one-up’ed by logic, an Uke finds their Seme
97.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 2:34 pm
“a converted lesbian, Janet Boynes”
So what?….Now she’s a Gay man?…..<3…Ronnie
98.
Felyx | March 6, 2010 at 6:02 pm
Janet Jackson says you can change your skin color….whoops! My bad, I meant Janet Boynes.
99.
dieter | March 6, 2010 at 2:40 pm
IN THE NEWS RIGHT NOW:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_military_gays_legal
100.
Ed-M | March 7, 2010 at 1:08 am
The Ninth Circuit ruled “that for a gay service member’s discharge to be constitutional, the military must demonstrate that the firing promotes cohesion or discipline in the unit.”
The front line troops these days DON’T CARE and even if they did the services can be structured and educated and consciuosness-raised to get rid of the homophobia. And the Sacred Band of Thebes and The 300 (the real kind, not the Hollywood version) show that an Army of Lovers are unusually cohesive. So the hateros have no case.
101.
David Kimble | March 6, 2010 at 2:43 pm
102.
Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan) | March 6, 2010 at 6:41 pm
This is just so cool! I love knowing that I’m not the only fan of the Divine Miss M on the Trial Tracker! Thanks, David!
103.
David Kimble | March 6, 2010 at 2:44 pm
Some years ago, I performed this number in drag and used my own voice – I got a standing ovation – everyone loved it! <3 David
104.
dieter | March 6, 2010 at 3:03 pm
Barbara Walters has one regret—asking singer Ricky Martin if he’s gay, she reveals in an interview with Toronto paper The Star. On Sunday the iconic interviewer will end 29 years of her famed Oscar-night specials, in which she sits down for incisive sit-down chats with popular celebrities, with interviews of nominees Sandra Bullock and Mo’Nique. With numerous interviews during her lengthy career, Walters has misgivings about only one question she asked.
“In 2000, I pushed Ricky Martin very hard to admit if he was gay or not, and the way he refused to do it made everyone decide that he was,” Walters tells The Star. “A lot of people say that destroyed his career, and when I think back on it now I feel it was an inappropriate question.”
Martin, a single father of twin boys, has never commented publicly on his sexuality.
105.
David Kimble | March 6, 2010 at 3:09 pm
BTW, I had a friend playing the piano, while I sang it in drag – it was one of the highlights of my life. <3 David
106.
Michelle Evans | March 6, 2010 at 5:29 pm
David,
Hopefully you’ll catch my comment when you wake up again, but I just wanted to say that it is good to know that you had a great time living the life of a transgender person, even if only for long enough to sing a song! Even having not seen the performance, I give you a standing ovation for being brave enough to do it.
For myself, I never performed in drag, but just being me is hard enough. :-)
107.
David Kimble | March 6, 2010 at 8:14 pm
Gosh, I am so addicted to this website – I needed to get-up and come and see what was happening. It is good to share music and parts of our unique experience with each other; beyond our fight for marriage equality we each share a very special spirit. No, I am not talking about God, but rather about how each of us have connected at this website in ways, perhaps prop8trialtracker.com had not thought possible. It is an immutable trait we all share in life, as members of the GLBT community. In my time in nursing, I experienced many of my residents (alzheimer) would react differently to me than other staff on the floor. I was once asked about it and I replied, “I treat them as I would any of my friends – their reality is but a razor’s edge from ours.” I got some strange looks, but the DNS (Director of Nursing Staff) came to me and said, “David, I now understand why you are so special on this unit – it is your heart you speak with and the residents respond to love.”
108.
Kathleen | March 6, 2010 at 8:17 pm
David, I’m addicted to this site, too. When I have to be away from my computer, I find I can hardly wait to come back and see what’s going on. (hope you had a nice nap)
109.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 8:21 pm
I’m addicted to P8TT too…I was about to say I hope your having a nice rest but since you are back….WUZ SUUUUUPPPPP!!!!!……hehehe…<3…Ronnie
110.
David Kimble | March 6, 2010 at 8:32 pm
Yes, I did…thanx. I will need to go back to bed soon though – I turn into a pumpkin at 9p these days! (chuckles) <3 David
111.
K!r!lleXXI | March 7, 2010 at 7:22 am
Geesh, we’re gonna have to organize “P8TT Online Anonymous” meetings for all the addicted… myself including…
112.
JonT | March 7, 2010 at 4:54 pm
Consider my self addicted as well! Thanks to all of you :)
113.
David Kimble | March 6, 2010 at 3:10 pm
well, all, I am very tired, I need to go to bed and get some rest. Enjoy the music! <3 David
114.
Kathleen | March 6, 2010 at 3:10 pm
sleep well. see you later. :)
115.
RAY in MA | March 6, 2010 at 3:46 pm
Lots of ignorance on the anti gay side, but I had to laugh when the anti gay lutheran minister refered to Paul Nathanson, the “Homeosexual Professor” LOL!!!
116.
Kathleen | March 6, 2010 at 3:55 pm
Apparently his gaydar went off, too. (evil grin)
117.
RAY in MA | March 6, 2010 at 5:42 pm
I’m in the ‘middle’ of viewing…
Harley… what a Wack-O!
“I am testifying with regard to my own personal experience with this issue…” Boise would ask him the depth of his “personal experience”… did it go as ar as having a same sex experience?
… I don’t think it did… the world he is claiming his experise in, was direct contact with the weakest of those who could adequately cope prior to 1993 … not a good sampling of the population … did anyone tell him today is in the year 2010?.
Janet Boimes came from a super screwed up family ( 4 fathers) what kind of credibility can she offer for her opinion? If she went on to get a doctorate from Harvard, I might consider that her opinion has any worth at all. Part of her testimony dwelled on anal sex, which appears she has studied extensively. I think she needs to focus her feelings on reality. I admire the Chairwoman for being polite to her, tho (who said she is amazed at the fixation of anal sex among the anti gay side)
Dale Carpenter is someone to keep an eye on…a conservative Repulican (civil rights lawyer) in favor of Gay Marriage. (and very good looking!)
118.
RAY in MA | March 6, 2010 at 5:44 pm
that should have been ‘could NOT adequately cope’
(sorry to interrupt the continuity of my message)
119.
RAY in MA | March 6, 2010 at 6:13 pm
If you watch any part of this video, PLEASE see Dale Carpenter’s testimony. He should be canonized for clarifying the reality side of the mariage equality issue in that state.
(for those not faimilar with the term ‘canonized’, it doesn’t mean shot at with a cannon, it means ‘declared a saint’… the catholics have an odd way of expressing things!)
120.
Bry | March 6, 2010 at 6:39 pm
Ray-
Indeed, Dale has been hit with the fire from the four canons…
…..of Psychological research
121.
RAY in MA | March 7, 2010 at 5:35 am
Bry,
NOT the kind of Psyh Research that has been verified by peer reviews, which is therefore, basically worthless.
BTW, find a peer who can review your spelling.
122.
Kevin S. | March 6, 2010 at 3:52 pm
I’ve still only watched about half of it, and that includes fast-forwarding through much of the early “testimony,” but Dale Carpenter absolutely killed it, from his “coming out” as a conservative to his evisceration of the myths put forth by the anti-gay crowd. I can only hope the rest of the testimony was as eloquent and effective as his was.
123.
RAY in MA | March 6, 2010 at 6:15 pm
I agree Kevin, see my comments above!
124.
Felyx | March 6, 2010 at 6:12 pm
I was watching the video, or rather listening to it in the background when I got to 01:07:00 and spit up my water all over the place.
Mee Moua (I hope I spelled that right) says, and I am paraphrasing here, that she saw nowhere in any of the bills the word anal. She then questions why the testifiers were so fixated on the sexual aspects of gay life….
Word For The Day…..
ANAL FIXATION! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
(Mee dear, you are so sweet and gentle, so I feel bad when I have to tell you that you owe me a new laptop! Hehehe!! Felyx in tears!)
125.
RAY in MA | March 6, 2010 at 6:25 pm
I was skeptical about spending time watching this, but I am ===VERY==== glad I did.
Thank you Brian, for bringing this to our attention!
126.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 7:19 pm
So my mother and i were just talking about this conversion therapy thing and she has talked about with some of the doctors at the hospital she works at….They said that these “doctors” need to be shot(there words not mine)…It doesn’t work for homosexuality….This is what these “doctors” are getting at…that being Gay is a choice and it is not (DAH!!!!)…..Case in point…In the worse cases of Bipolar Disorder (now I can talk about this because I have been diagnosed with a mild case of it)….Shock therapy can be used in moderation….not suggested but has been effective…..The point is there needs to be a pin point…a marker of when things went wrong (meaning causing physical and mental harm)….but as I posted in one of the “Tell your courageous story” threads…When did I choose to be gay?…..In order to erase that you need to pin point and it needs be established that being Gay is choice and it needs to be established when one had made that choice….Trust me I have studied that in my own life ad nauseam to pin point when to point were I tried to kill myself 3 fu<king times…that wasn't only reason for those attempts but it was a huge part of it….When I finally realized that I was born Gay and that I was in fact Gay…life was better for me..yes I had the occasional bigot and Hatero but that's life…..
So onto my point…for me to go though shock conversion therapy there are 2 points in my life that at 25&1/2yo I would have to have my memory erased back to…the first being the entire span of my life since I KNOW I was born Gay…..the second would be to when I started questioning and realizing that I am gay at 14yo which just so happens to be when I tried to kill myself the first time….lose situation for the first…..lose for the second because the second time around I might succeed at what I failed to do 3 times….of course everybody would experience it diff…and the effects would be diff for everybody…..
But since there is no psychological, scientific, and physical evidence or a general "expert" consensus that homosexuality is a choice…I still ask when and how much?….and how long does it last?…These are things nobody has the answer too because there are none….Being Gay is not a choice…..what you do with that knowledge is a choice….the final point is with ECT all it can do is block out memories…Erase them….along with all the other things that happened during those times…for me I was loose all of the education that I have gotten from college…my first true kiss….my mothers 50th b-day….my 21st b-day….by first professional fashion show…..and so on and so on… but those thing are apart of your soul…your being…your heart….. and they will always be there….suppressed or not….the Truth always come out…..
for this "ex-lesbian" she says the worst part of her life was over when you became "normal" again….but what is she doing now?….making other peoples lives miserable…trying to destroy other peoples lives…its pathetic…really really sad….that to suppress who she is and was she has joined in the witch hunt to oppress those who would not judge her and accept her for who she is and not try to change her to conform to what people thinks she "traditionally" supposed to be based on some theoretical book written 2000 years after the fact and reads as best selling fiction worthy of J.K. Rowling and J.R.R. Tolkien…..
My last statement is that there is no such thing as "Normal" (and I know I have posted this before, but it seems fitting)…..There is only "Next to Normal" as is explained in the awesome new Broadway Musical (a must see in NYC)…..enjoy….<3….Ronnie:
127.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 7:33 pm
Last thing to add….Be Gay…..GAY GAY GAY GAY GAY…..Wave that Rainbow Flag…..throw that glitter…..and DANCE DANCE DANCE…..America is the land of the FREE not the Land of sheep…..Gay means Happy….and Equality will be ours….and not decades from now….but soon…THERE WILL BE LIGHT…hehehe..to paraphrase Margaret Cho…To be apart of LGBTQQIA community in the 21st century is truly an act of revolution and our revolution is long over due……<3…Ronnie
128.
Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan) | March 6, 2010 at 8:26 pm
And this song is why we will win. The title tells where our battle for marriage equalit is coming from.
129.
Kathleen | March 6, 2010 at 8:34 pm
Nice song. I love the mandolin.
130.
Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan) | March 6, 2010 at 8:40 pm
Thanks, Kathleen. I’m just really surprised that I successfully embedded a video. Now that I know how, I will probably provide more music as I find stuff that seems to fit, or to be an encouragement to folks here.
131.
Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan) | March 6, 2010 at 7:45 pm
Ronnie, I also remember a book by Patsy Clairmont where the title declares that “Normal is Only a Setting on Your Clothes Dryer.” What is really bad is that now, the only time I see an appliance with a “Normal” setting, it is a dishwasher, and even then, it is two settings–”Normal Light,” and “Normal Heavy.” Besides, normal is WAY overrated, LOL!
132.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 7:52 pm
Not just that dopty-daddy…..everything is pretty much touch screen and LCD…the way God intended it to be…says the Jetsons…….Next to Normal is the new Black….hehehehe…..<3….Ronnie
133.
Petr Tomeš | March 8, 2010 at 1:06 pm
“But since there is no psychological, scientific, and physical evidence or a general “expert” consensus that homosexuality is a choice…I still ask when and how much?”
The current literature and most scholars in the field state that one’s sexual orientation is not a choice; that is, individuals do not choose to be homosexual or heterosexual. There is no scientific evidence that parenting, sexual abuse, other adverse life events, or early childhood experiences influence sexual orientation. Those assumptions are now understood to have been based on misinformation and prejudice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#Choice_vs._innate
134. Community Updates « alone with others | March 6, 2010 at 7:46 pm
[...] marriage and same-sex couples because marriage is a legal union, not just a religious one. Go here to see the whole 2 [...]
135.
Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan) | March 6, 2010 at 7:48 pm
For anyone who hasn’t heard, this may be off-topic, and I will need Ronnie’s help to post the link, because I can’t even find it in the place I found the article, but a 41-year-old English Teacher at Londonderry High School in New Hampshire is free on $10,000 bond after being charged with two sex offenses involving emailing a 15-year-old male student of hes nude pictures of herself and then sending him text messages describing the sex acts she wanted to perform on him. And Nancy Elliot was so afraid of LGBTQQI’s being allowed to get married that she concocted a story about gay sx being taught to 5th graders? Get real here!
136.
Kevin S. | March 6, 2010 at 7:59 pm
This story?
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yfqxsk9
137.
Kevin S. | March 6, 2010 at 8:00 pm
Ah, damnit.
http://tinyurl.com/yfqxsk9
138.
Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan) | March 6, 2010 at 8:03 pm
Yes.
139.
Kevin S. | March 6, 2010 at 8:19 pm
And yeah, that’s totally better than acknowledging that some people have different urges than others. *eyeroll*
140.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 8:01 pm
http://www.startribune.com/nation/86669512.html?elr=KArksUUUoDEy3LGDiO7aiU
I found this about it…..so ironic….truly worthy of (but look she did worse and its actually true…..and shes STRAIGHT!!!!….ahhhhhh….pot meet kettle)….<3….Ronnie
141.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 8:22 pm
A gift to all my P8TT brothers and sisters and mommies and daddies…….<3….Ronnie:
142.
David Kimble | March 6, 2010 at 8:48 pm
This is the last song for tonight – enjoy! I am off to bed! < David
143.
David Kimble | March 6, 2010 at 8:50 pm
This is for all my friends, who have been so sweet over the past few months! <3 David
144.
Kathleen | March 6, 2010 at 8:51 pm
Night night. sweet dreams.
145.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 8:54 pm
Good night David K…i’m going to watch “Cirque Du Freak: The Vampire’s Assistant” now (haven’t seen it yet)…sleep well…..TTY2morro…..<3…Ronnie
146.
Dennis | March 6, 2010 at 9:39 pm
You are hateful people.
147.
Michelle Evans | March 6, 2010 at 10:09 pm
Dennis,
And exactly where is that comment coming from? Is there something you’d like to discuss with us?
148.
Ronnie | March 6, 2010 at 10:13 pm
Nope not hateful here….full of hurt….and tired of being treated less then human yes…JMHGO……<3…..Ronnie
149.
Linda | March 6, 2010 at 10:50 pm
We are angry; and we are incredibly hurt. And we are so tired of having to justify who we are. We are human beings; we love, we laugh, we cry, we feel, we vent. We support and encourage each other. We accept each other without reservation or judgement. We protect each other.
And we are hated…..simply for existing. We are persecuted. We are abused, attacked and murdered. We are labeled perverse and sick. We are denied our fundamental rights.
We are your sister, your brother, your mom, your dad; your daughter, your son, your neighbor, your friend; your co-worker, your teacher, your doctor…your self. We are no different than you.
Love,
Linda
150.
JonT | March 7, 2010 at 5:07 pm
Couldn’t have said it better myself linda.
151.
Richard A. Walter (soon to be Walter-Jernigan) | March 6, 2010 at 11:29 pm
Hateful? No. Persecuted, hated, hundted down and beaten, even fatally, simply for refusing to lie about who we are and who we love? Yes. Tired of being held down, held back, abused, persecuted, and hiding? Yes. We are tired of all of this, and we are tired of our children suffering because others refuse to see us as human beings, tired of seeing lies being told about us, tired of being denied fundamental human rights out of fear, misrepresentation, superstition, and malice.
152.
fiona64 | March 7, 2010 at 11:43 am
No, Dennis. We aren’t. We are, in fact, filled with love. As a straight ally, I don’t even hate the people who are against my LGBTQIA friends; I just pity you all. It must be really painful to live such sad, tiny lives that you are angered by other people loving one another.
I hope that you are able to find the peace of which you are in such obvious need.
Love,
Fiona
153.
Dennis | March 8, 2010 at 10:40 am
I’m sorry about that message! It was not me! It must have been a real hater!
154.
Dennis | March 8, 2010 at 10:37 am
I think someone wrote this from my account at the library. This was not me. Haters can be found at: ‘protectmarriage.com’. Thank you.
155.
Dennis | March 8, 2010 at 10:45 am
!Everyone who saw this! I am sorry about this message! I think it was left by someone at the library who used the computer after me! It was most definitely not from me!! I was shocked when I saw my Inbox with all the replies. I will be more cautious about logging out in the future!
Even though it wasn’t me, I feel AWFUL that it appears under my name!
156.
K!r!lleXXI | March 9, 2010 at 1:41 am
@Dennis
Anyone from anywhere could type “Dennis” in username input field and leave that comment, nobody’s thinking about you. It’s a very popular name. May I suggest you to change your username — add some letter (like from your middle name or last name), or something else, to make it more unique? I’m sure that guy didn’t even know there is another Dennis here, he just typed it and left his cowardly comment. So, stop sweating about it and change your username/nickname.
157.
Wade MacMorrighan | March 6, 2010 at 11:35 pm
Guys, I am so thoroughly SICK of the Christians telling us that we not only should be changed, but how it would benefit society if it were somehow mandated by law! Why is no one expressing the fact that it’s ONLY the Christians who are promulgating this shit?! BEFORE Christianity’s domination of Western conscious (which was a hard fought battle often using torture to extirpate anyone who didn’t believe as they) nearly every culture and society embraced our natural sexual orientation; in fact, we were often regarded as sacred, or a gift from the gods, who were adopted as natural-born Shamans or High Priests! We were deeply revered! And, it is for this reason that I find self-loathing Gay men and lesbians so utterly heart-wrenching! I feel so much compassion for them… Christianity is a predator that simply MUST be silenced! But, part of my personal mission is to teach as many Gay people as I can about our once-powerful History where we often had public roles analogous to Secretary of State, etc. If anyone would like to research their history, please get a copy of the following books (they’re my personal favorites):
* Cassell’s Encyclopedia of Queer Myth, Symbol & Spirit
* Blossom of Bone: Reclaiming the Connection Between Homoeroticism and the Sacred
* Queer Spirits: A Gay Men’s Myth Book, by anthropologist Will Roscoe (I recommend ALL of his books!)
* Witchcraft and the Gay Counterculture
* Another Mother Tongue: Gay Words, Gay Worlds
* Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality: Gay People in Western Europe from the Beginning of the Christian Era to the Fourteenth Century, by the late Prof. of History (Harvard), John Boswell
* Same-Sex Unions in Pre-Modern Europe, by John Boswell
Of course, this is just a small sampling of my favorite books, but it’s a great start for anyone to engage in.
Sigh…I just wish that such ventures would also get the perspective of non-Monotheists on the subject, and to show how such “conversions” are really a smoke-screen for religious (Christian) animus!
Oh, and don’t forget to read this (always) important article from the Southern Poverty Law Center showing what the Religious Right’s true moves are–enforced Biblical Law comprising the legal codes of the U.S.: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2005/spring/holy-war
All my love,
Wade
158.
Wade MacMorrighan | March 6, 2010 at 11:44 pm
Prof. Boswell once made a very astute observation, which it’s hard to believe no one noted (obviously) before, when he wrote, explicitly, that, “Majorities…create minorities, in one very real sense, by deciding to categorize them” [pp. 59].
159.
fiona64 | March 7, 2010 at 11:46 am
Wade wrote; Christianity is a predator that simply MUST be silenced!
Allow me to explain why I disagree: the people who practice hate in the name of the Prince of Peace are not Christians. Fundamentalism of any stripe scares the crap out of me, but I have learned that fundamental Christians have very little relation to actual Christianity and people who walk in Jesus’ footsteps.
I’m a straight ally who was tremendously harmed by experiences with the Christian church in which I grew up as it became more and more fundamentalist. I only started to heal that relationship with the Rabbi Yeshua whose words I still believed when I met the pastor of a small congregation in a predominantly gay denomination. I found out what real Christian love looks like, and it sure as hell isn’t what the hateros (as Ronnie Mac started to call them) are out there preaching.
Love and light,
Fiona
160.
K!r!lleXXI | March 7, 2010 at 12:29 pm
Dear Fiona!
I know Wade a little — he is Pagan from Iowa. His faith makes him feel very adversely about Christianity overall, each and every denomination and sect. Pagans believe that Christianity destroy Paganism and took over about 2000 years ago… before that Paganism was the prevalent religious tradition.
–Kirill, from Russia with ♥
161.
fiona64 | March 7, 2010 at 12:41 pm
Dear Kirill:
I have been a practicing Wiccan for more than half my life. I understand what Wade is trying to get across, but considering that this country is based on the idea of freedom to worship (and how those same Fundamentalists want to stamp out any religion other than their own), I don’t think it’s beneficial to say that we should go around deciding how other people worship.
I speak the absolute truth when I say that Rabbi Yeshua’s words still made sense to me every day, but that I could no longer call my self “Christian” in the sense of what the Fundamentalists had turned the church into. Not all Christians are Fundamentalists.
That is all I was trying to get across. If I did not do well, I am sorry.
Love,
Fiona
162.
K!r!lleXXI | March 7, 2010 at 12:53 pm
Dearest Fiona,
I merely wanted to explain that Wade is Pagan and that is why his reaction is so strong. That’s all I tried to say. Really.
Of course, we should respect freedom of religion. I do. But some religions tell people they should not respect other religions… And what we are supposed to do about that? First amendment about freedom and respect of other people’s religious beliefs trumps those beliefs or not? I think it does. But religious people may feel differently, they may be excommunicated from their religion just for sharing the belief that First Amendment trumps their beliefs about not respecting other religions. Quite a conundrum. Quite a predicament… That’s really a topic for a standalone discussion…
I was merely pointing out the “why,” not that I agree or something.
–Kirill
163.
Kathleen | March 7, 2010 at 1:49 pm
But some religions tell people they should not respect other religions… And what we are supposed to do about that?
Fundamental rights, including those involving religion are not without limits. While a person has a right to whatever religious beliefs they want, their actions (even those which can be construed as “speech” in a legal sense, have to comport with protection of the constitutional rights of others. That is, they can believe that other religions are not worthy of their respect, they can even carry signs saying that, but they can’t stop those other people from the practice of their religion. Hate crime laws even require that they not act in a way that would encourage violence by others.
So the answer to the question “First amendment about freedom and respect of other people’s religious beliefs trumps those beliefs or not?” is YES.
This balance between the apparent conflict of different people’s rights is exactly what the courts rule on all the time, when they determine the scope and constitutionality of laws.
164.
K!r!lleXXI | March 8, 2010 at 3:11 am
@Kathleen
I wholeheartedly agree with you — the law, the philosophy, and the common sense agree on this one! There is no universal religion, no universal belief, no universal evidence that will make all the people accept some particular belief… and that is why there is something above religions — respect and acceptance of all human beings and their inborn civil rights — this is the very basis and the very purpose of the law (in my humble understanding)! And this is why I can’t stand those organized religions that impose their own born-out-of-scripture policies trampling on this very basic, universal, and untouchable principle of respect to one another and of each other’s rights. Breaking this principle is what makes us animals, not gay sex! This is what religious leaders do not understand — and this is the source of all our problems!
–Kirill, now in ♥ with F
165.
Doug | March 6, 2010 at 11:40 pm
Bill Harley, I won’t even call you a Doctor, you are full of crap. Who do you think you are to say that anyone can have sex with anyone or any thing. You are repulsive. I am a gay man and I was born that way. Get with the program.
166.
Michelle Evans | March 7, 2010 at 12:19 am
I notice that Dennis dropped in just long enough to say something hateful, then disappeared. Unfortunately predictable as he couldn’t stand an actual conversation on this subject.
Reminds me of a friend I used to have. This is a guy that I grew up with and had know since about 12. We were the definition of best friends, spent a lot of our free time together. Always visited when I was on leave from the Air Force and we had many memorable adventures together. I helped out with his disabled mother when I could, and on and on.
Then he found out about my transition…
Hadn’t heard a thing from him in a long time. He never answered his phone and I couldn’t get an email address for him after he moved out of state. One day I get an email from “Fred Sanford.” (seems like an appropriate choice of an ignorant person considering his subsequent email.) The email I got was scathing in its rhetoric and hatred of everything concerning being transgender. “You’re a man, get over it!” Things of that nature and much, much worse that I won’t repeat here.
When he got to the end of his tirade he mentions that he set up the email account for one purpose–to attack me–and that by the time I read the email and responded, the address would no longer be active, so don’t bother. Considering our long history, he really hurt me with what he said and how he acted, but I’ve had to give up that hurt over the years, but as I’m sure many people here could testify, saying you should do it is a long way from being able to actually do it.
Heck, for all I know, this “Dennis” guy is actually “Fred Sanford” aka Mike, my old and supposedly best friend. He certainly acts like him. It was especially scary to see Mike’s conversion in that he was basically a pot-smoking hippie as he grew up, and by the time of his email he had moved from California to Colorado and become a full-fledged, card-carrying red neck. Don’t know if he ever found god, but he sure acted like it.
167.
Kathleen | March 7, 2010 at 12:39 am
I suspect he was someone who just dropped in, hoping he could get things stirred up. It’s been my experience that the best way to deal with these people (unless they show a genuine desire for civil discourse) is just to ignore them. Any acknowledgment tends to just make things worse.
168.
K!r!lleXXI | March 7, 2010 at 8:34 am
@Michelle
This is exactly the reason why I cut all my connections with people I know in Russia… I’m pretty sure the most of them would be judgmental and would not accept me as a gay person, would say many hurtful things and run away… So, I ran away from them first. Maybe I should have given them a chance, they certainly deserve that much, but it’s way too risky, and going on lying is just becoming too hard. Whatever they think, I understand they have a right to have their own opinions, and choose their own friends. It’s easier to start over. Some other place. Some other time. Someday.
@Kathleen
Agreed on ignoring them!
I understand how most of us want to fight them because we know we’re right… But that would be just a waste of OUR time and space here, in comments on P8TT.
–Kirill
169.
Ed-M | March 7, 2010 at 3:20 am
Here’s what self-loathing can drive people to do: “Teen shoots his own testicles”
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_14519745?source=most_viewed&nclick_check=1
Do you think the kid would have done this to himself if he were straight????
170.
dieter | March 7, 2010 at 5:23 am
Sinead O’Connor: Burn Down The Vatican
“A true Christian is someone who, in any given situation, is supposed to ask themselves what would Jesus do, then try to do that. How an organisation which has acted, decade after decade, only to protect its business interests above the interests of children can feel it has the right to dictate to us what Christians should do is beyond belief.
“From the Pope on down, through the Vatican and therefore through the lower echelons, the whole organisation, in my belief, is utterly anti-Christian and evil, as proven by centuries of torture, bloodshed, burnings, terrorism, and coverings-up of ‘the worst crime’ known to man.
“And if Jesus Christ is to be seen in the vulnerable of this world, then all the church has done is crucify the man over and over and over again. If Christ was here, he would be burning down the Vatican. And I for one would be helping him.” – Sinead O’Connor, responding to a request from Ireland’s Catholic Church for local parishioners to recompense the church for the massive settlements paid to the victims of pedophile priests.
171.
Sheryl Carver | March 7, 2010 at 9:30 am
And THIS is one of the military leaders the pro-DADT folks cite to support their homophobic stance. Former AF Chief of Staff Merrill McPeak had admitted that he would allow his personal prejudices to take precedence over military effectiveness. And this guy was allowed to remain in command?
Excerpt of an article by Aaron Belkin, Director of the Palm Center:
McPeak says that, “To undermine cohesion is to endanger everyone.” But McPeak himself has admitted that when there is a tradeoff between pursuing moral values and military effectiveness, he prefers the former. In 1991 and 1992, McPeak opposed women in combat, saying in talks with lawmakers that he had “personal prejudices” against expanding combat roles for women, “even though logic tells us” that women can conduct combat operations just as well as men. He told Congress then that he would choose an inferior male flight instructor over a superior female one even if it made for a “militarily less effective situation.” “I admit it doesn’t make much sense,” he said, “but that’s the way I feel about it.” Elsewhere he repeated that his position did not meet “strict evidence standards for logic,” but that that did not raise doubts in him about his position.
For the complete article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-belkin/nyt-op-ed-on-gay-troops-d_b_487283.html
172.
Waxr | March 7, 2010 at 10:05 am
It is bigots who destroy morale and cohesiveness in the military. Not gays.
173.
Billy | March 7, 2010 at 9:43 am
Wow! Senator Steve Murphy’s personal story at about 1:32:05 in the video is very moving.
174.
Megan | March 8, 2010 at 2:22 pm
I agree!! I was in the room at this hearing — that was one of the best moments. Brought tears for me.
175.
KrissKringle | March 7, 2010 at 11:19 am
In 2009 the American Psychological Association Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation conducted a systematic review of the peer-reviewed journal literature on sexual orientation change efforts (SOCE) and concluded:
Efforts to change sexual orientation are unlikely to be successful and involve some risk of harm, contrary to the claims of SOCE practitioners and advocates. Even though the research and clinical literature demonstrate that same-sex sexual and romantic attractions, feelings, and behaviors are normal and positive variations of human sexuality, regardless of sexual orientation identity, the task force concluded that the population that undergoes SOCE tends to have strongly conservative religious views that lead them to seek to change their sexual orientation. Thus, the appropriate application of affirmative therapeutic interventions for those who seek SOCE involves therapist acceptance, support, and understanding of clients and the facilitation of clients’ active coping, social support, and identity exploration and development, without imposing a specific sexual orientation identity outcome. [2]
The task force determined that the reported benefits from SOCE could be achieved through other means and instead recommends sexual orientation identity exploration for patients distressed by their sexual orientation. [2] The APA states “practitioners should avoid telling clients they can change from Gay to Straight”. [5]
Mainstream health organizations critical of attempts to change sexual orientation include the American Medical Association, [76] American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Counseling Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the American Academy of Pediatrics, [77] the American Association of School Administrators, the American Federation of Teachers, the National Association of School Psychologists, the American Academy of Physician Assistants, and the National Education Association. [78] [79]
176.
Ronnie | March 7, 2010 at 11:24 am
Umm……it doesn’t work…enough said….<3….Ronnie
177.
Dan Hess | March 8, 2010 at 10:56 am
Actually, it can. You’d have to inflict psychological torture to a point that would get you life in prison if anyone found out about it, but you COULD brainwash someone to the point of repressing their natural sexual tendencies. Doing so would be absolutely evil, but not impossible.
178.
Ronnie | March 8, 2010 at 11:02 am
nope doesn’t work…..just because they say they no longer have same sex attractions doesn’t mean they are not thinking it….or feeling it….saying it is one thing but thinking it another…..so I’m sticking to….it doesn’t work…read what I posted above with the video of “Next to Normal”…any you see where I am coming from….<3…Ronnie
179.
Kevin S. | March 8, 2010 at 1:52 pm
But repressing isn’t the same as changing – it would still just be burying those feelings under psychological trauma.
We can certainly agree that any such efforts are thoroughly evil, though.
180.
K!r!lleXXI | March 9, 2010 at 2:20 am
@Ronnie
I’m afraid I’ll have to disagree with you just a teeny bit. Because I know what a human brain is capable of (and, believe me, what I know from my own experience is nothing compared to what human brain is really capable of, I just have a bit of a better understanding).
Our brain is what makes us human, what makes us us… and we are capable of screwing ourselves into pretty much anything! ANYTHING! Even into changing our sexual orientation! But it’s a miserable path, full of self-loathing and feeling of self-worthlessness, it’s the worst experience ever…
We know that many cold-blooded serial killers become those heartless bastards after they go through some serious psychological trauma (like witnessing a brutal murder of a parent in a very young age [toddler, preschooler]). I believe, the change of sexual orientation really happens when people undergo some kind of psychotherapy that basically becomes the equivalent of that brutal psychological trauma — so brutal and so horrendous that people have to change in order to survive mentally, to stay sane.
So, my point is, you can change sexual orientation, but this will be a really traumatic experience, the worst kind of torture for your mind. And this change may be real — without any same-sex attraction left… because any attraction of that kind will turn into hatred, the worst kind of contempt, as a coping mechanism to ensure you never go back…
Yes, I’ll repeat, I believe changing sexual orientation is possible (because I believe anything is possible when we’re dealing with human brain), but it is extremely hard and extremely traumatic for anyone’s consciousness, it goes beyond any rationale and should be banned as a subkind of torture. Why fix something if it’s not broken? Why break something into little pieces if all you want is to fit in into something smaller? — Because you simply can? This is just sick and has no good reason. So, this is the real argument — not that it’s possible, but that it’s pointless and cruel.
–Kirill ♥ F
181.
Ronnie | March 9, 2010 at 5:43 am
Nope….doesn’t work….sexual orientation doesn’t come from the brain…if that was then case then they could say it was a choice….its not a choice….sexual orientation comes from your soul and your heart….I’m still sticking with all I said above…..just because they say it doesn’t make it true…..<3…Ronnie
182.
Ronnie | March 9, 2010 at 5:58 am
However I do agree that what ever they do to “try to change” (which they can’t) is harmful…not just to them but anybody who is in their lives and will come into their lives….all practices should be illegal and all licenses taken away……I say give all these “ex-gay” Hateros by default lie detector tests in a public arena……<3….Ronnie
183.
K!r!lleXXI | March 9, 2010 at 9:04 am
@Ronnie
Well, obviously, I’m not gonna argue about your religious beliefs — if that’s what you believe, go ahead and believe the hell out of it. My point was that you can trick your brain into thinking anything, including that you have changed your sexual orientation for real, completely, not just chose to ignore same-sex attractions, chose not to act on those attractions, and chose to pretend to be happy with someone of the opposite gender. I guess I was wrong to state that this trickery should be considered as the real change (we really don’t know how these things work on some subconscious level), but I still claim this trickery will appear like the real deal, so your claim of everybody being a liar about “straightening up” is a bit of an overstatement.
–Kirill ♥ F
184.
Ronnie | March 9, 2010 at 9:17 am
not everybody….just “ex-gays”….they are not so much liars as they are omitting the truth……nah….eff that…they are big old liars…..they are just as bad as Jewish Nazis…..<3…Ronnie
185.
Michelle Evans | March 9, 2010 at 11:48 am
I would have to agree with Kirille that it is possible to outwardly change orientation, and to even inwardly believe it. However, I think a lot of people here might be misconstruing what he’s trying to get across. He and I would both absolutely agree that it is a dangerous practice to do so, but there would be many people who would go through some sort of very harmful reparative therapy and come out the other end “cured.”
The idea behind this garbage is that they have basically been brainwashed. There is no better term for it than that. Think about most religious belief systems and you find exactly the same thing. So, since it works so well on the masses to believe nonsensical and illogical things in religion, it is an offshoot of that to do reparative therapy and have someone actually “believe” they are now straight.
That is what causes such great harm, in that underneath it all, nothing has really changed, but their minds have been forced to believe otherwise. Thus you have a dichotomy inside anyone’s head that has been forced through this (or even done so willingly), that could, and almost certainly will, explode at some point in the future, leading to very harmful behavior and/or suicide.
For evidence of this look directly into the LGBT community. It is not hard to find people who often speak about how they lived the “standard” lifestyle of a husband, wife, and 2.5 kids with the picket fence and all, only for it all to eventually boil over, and end with them coming out as gay, even when they didn’t even consciously understand what was going on previously due to internal and unconscious repression.
Reparative therapy just goes the opposite direction, in that the person figures out much earlier that they are actually LGBT, which leads those around them (usually in a very religious setting) to intervene and see that their behavior is “corrected.”
These people would then absolutely believe that they are “straight” and “cured” because that’s what they’ve been told to believe, and in unfortunately many cases, what the person themselves wants to believe because they want to fit in and please those around them.
186.
Petr Tomeš | March 8, 2010 at 1:12 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation_change_efforts#Effects_of_SOCE
187.
Petr Tomeš | March 9, 2010 at 5:01 am
@K!r!lleXXI “I believe changing sexual orientation is possible”
In 2009 the American Psychological Association Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation conducted a systematic review of the peer-reviewed journal literature on sexual orientation change efforts (SOCE) and concluded:
Efforts to change sexual orientation are unlikely to be successful and involve some risk of harm, contrary to the claims of SOCE practitioners and advocates. Even though the research and clinical literature demonstrate that same-sex sexual and romantic attractions, feelings, and behaviors are normal and positive variations of human sexuality, regardless of sexual orientation identity, the task force concluded that the population that undergoes SOCE tends to have strongly conservative religious views that lead them to seek to change their sexual orientation. Thus, the appropriate application of affirmative therapeutic interventions for those who seek SOCE involves therapist acceptance, support, and understanding of clients and the facilitation of clients’ active coping, social support, and identity exploration and development, without imposing a specific sexual orientation identity outcome.
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf
No major mental health professional organization has sanctioned efforts to change sexual orientation and virtually all of them have adopted policy statements cautioning the profession and the public about treatments that purport to change sexual orientation. These include the American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, American Counseling Association, National Association of Social Workers in the USA, the Royal College of Psychiatrists, and the Australian Psychological Society.
http://www.glad.org/uploads/docs/cases/2009-11-17-doma-aff-herek.pdf
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/press/pressreleasearchives/2009/statement.aspx
http://www.psychology.org.au/publications/tip_sheets/orientation/
The American Psychological Association and the Royal College of Psychiatrists expressed concerns that the positions espoused by NARTH are not supported by the science and create an environment in which prejudice and discrimination can flourish.
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/policy/ex-gay.pdf
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/press/pressreleasearchives/2009/statement.aspx
188.
K!r!lleXXI | March 9, 2010 at 9:12 am
@Petr Tomeš
You didn’t get my point. Well, I didn’t deliver it properly.
I explained it better above.
–Kirill ♥ F